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Vitamin C?

#1

M

MLJ

Long time listener and have heard many discussions about Vit C dosing, yet there is nothing on the website about how much or what to take? Would love to have that information. Have been taking 5000IU of Vit D for over a year. The latest blood test as part of my annual physical had me right in the middle of the acceptable range.



#3

T

Trey

I would love to have an episode devoted to Steve's Vitamin C and Magnesium research. The Vitamin D episode is a seminal work, and I would love something similar for the new stuff. I don't want to just know what to take; I want to know why.


#4

M

Mervyn Haynes

I would love to have an episode devoted to Steve's Vitamin C and Magnesium research. The Vitamin D episode is a seminal work, and I would love something similar for the new stuff. I don't want to just know what to take; I want to know why.
Would you go to your doctor to resolve an IT problem?


#5

M

MLJ

Yeah, but that really only gives half the story. As Trey mentioned, it's way less thorough than the Vit D stuff posted on the website. I'm not necessarily advocating for that level, but something in the middle would be nice. At least links to some various products with various information on dosing, etc.


#6

P

PanamaVet

Would you go to your doctor to resolve an IT problem?

If a doctor was active in a forum like this and posts identified the person as a reliable asset on my problem I would certainly discuss my IT problem.

Would I contact a random doctor about my IT problem? That would be foolish.

I have been monitoring the health discussions in this group for about a decade. My second wellness colonoscopy in a decade literally reported boring, boring boring with a grin on his face. I have zero blockage in my arteries and my general practitioner said keep up the good work.

My wellness routine follows a good bit of the health advice received here. Magnesium removed the pain I was experiencing at the gym. All gain, no pain. But then, you have to know which magnesium to purchase and you can guess where I found that information. Hint, it was not at the doctor's office and I was not charged for it :)


#7

M

Mervyn Haynes

Would I contact a random doctor about my IT problem? That would be foolish.
Would that not be the case the other way around? I.e. taking medical advice from IT person?


#8

Vela Nanashi

Vela Nanashi

@Mervyn Haynes I think you are missing the point, Steve is not a random IT person, he is more than that, he has done a lot of research that has helped him, those around him, and others on the nntp server and will likely help people here, and people who have listened to him talk about these topics on security now.

Would I listen to a random IT person about medical things? No.

But Steve has a track record of processing a lot of papers and science and condensing it and then making it understandable to others. So that is different.

A bit of a rant follows, feel free to skip :)

In some ways maybe random IT people with good information processing skills, will be able to do a better job than stressed out doctors that just want to quickly get the patient some prescription(s) to keep them from dying and treat symptoms, rather than cure them (so the patient keeps coming back), and get them the fuck out of their office is going to.

At least in my personal experience doctors do 99% of the time not actually help me, medicines prescribed often have worse side effects than the symptoms they were prescribed for, at least for me. And at least here they have less than a hour of time for each patient (including the break between patients and time to read the journal for the patient and write the new journal notes), maybe that is better in the US, I have not experienced the US medical system, so I would not know.


#9

M

Mervyn Haynes

I think you are missing the point
I am not missing any point. The fact is medical advise is being taken by others from someone with no medical training. I would have thought in this day and age, where people sue each other (especially in the US) for the slightest "negligence", he may be leaving himself vulnerable.
maybe that is better in the US, I have not experienced the US medical system, so I would not know.
I too have very little experience of US medical system, living in the UK. The only time i came into contact with it was when I had severe head pain, and they wanted $400 before i was even looked at. Thank god for our NHS.


#10

danlock

danlock

I am not missing any point. The fact is medical advise is being taken by others from someone with no medical training. I would have thought in this day and age, where people sue each other (especially in the US) for the slightest "negligence", he may be leaving himself vulnerable.

That might be the case if he claimed to be a medical professional or did not make clear that his findings regarding what supplements work for him are the result of personal research and experimentation.

I don't think he has anything to worry about on that front.


#11

Barry Wallis

Barry Wallis

I too have very little experience of US medical system, living in the UK. The only time i came into contact with it was when I had severe head pain, and they wanted $400 before i was even looked at. Thank god for our NHS.
That's something I hadn't thought of. So, your UK medical "insurance" doesn't cover you when you leave the country?


#12

P

PHolder

your UK medical "insurance" doesn't cover you when you leave the country?
Canadian health insurance doesn't really cover you abroad. More specifically it *might* cover you, but the coverage will be at Canadian levels, and that probably is insufficient for the expenses incurred in another country. Many employers provide specific travel health insurance if they expect you to travel. Some travel focused credit cards also provide some coverage. If you have no specific coverage, contracting a temporary coverage for the duration of your trip abroad is probably well advised.


#13

M

Mervyn Haynes

That's something I hadn't thought of. So, your UK medical "insurance" doesn't cover you when you leave the country?
It is not medical insurance as such. The NHS (National Health Service) was formed in 1948. It basically said that medical care was free to everyone. In the days of the EU (European Union), which we (UK) are now exiting (Brexit), that was extended to all EU countries, and they would have cover in our country. Outside of this we would purchase medical insurance, but we would have to pay up first & claim it back later!
PS I notice you are watching neXt too, when is episode 4 coming out? They have stopped!


#14

Barry Wallis

Barry Wallis

It is not medical insurance as such. The NHS (National Health Service) was formed in 1948. It basically said that medical care was free to everyone. In the days of the EU (European Union), which we (UK) are now exiting (Brexit), that was extended to all EU countries, and they would have cover in our country. Outside of this we would purchase medical insurance, but we would have to pay up first & claim it back later!
PS I notice you are watching neXt too, when is episode 4 coming out? They have stopped!
Thanks. I went back and forth on what to call the NHS. As you can see I finally settled on "insurance" hoping you wouldn't be offended by the quotes (I moderate a language page for a popular radio show / podcast on language so I try to be careful of my usage).

So NHS doesn't cover you in other countries but would cover me if I became ill in the UK. Correct? In the U.S. even though I have government insurance (Medicare for those over 65) I also pay for a private insurance supplement which not only supplements Medicare but would cover me if I go abroad (not all supplements do but that's the benefit of being able to choose private insurance).

As far as NEXT goes, I don't think it will be back until 11/10 (I would have said 11/3 but that's election day in the US).


#15

M

MLJ

In the US, anyone can post/write/blog/etc. information about anything 'medical' they want, as long as they don't claim they are a doctor or try to see patients like a doctor generally speaking. That said, licensing in this country is on a state-by-state basis, as are most libel laws, etc. etc. So it can vary from state to state. The vitamin and supplement industries are also highly unregulated in this country with not approvals formally by the FDA, NIH, etc. All the best ones submit to outside auditing for the process, efficacy, etc., but it's not mandatory. And not all rating agencies are the same either.

But in general, you can write, blog, publish, etc. anything you want. There are tons of books written about all kinds of dietary and medical things by laypersons. At least for the Vit D research Steve has posted, it appears to be well researched, well documented, and backed up with links to multiple studies, etc. I've taken 5000IU a day for the last year and a recent routine physical with a blood test also checked for Vit D and B12 levels, and my Vit D level was right down the middle. Maybe it's not taken the supplement to do that, but I'd have to stop and then go back for another test, etc. For the pennies a day, seems no harm and anything I can do to stave off illnesses, etc. is welcome.

I know several medical professionals who are very competent IT people (and a few engineers in that to boot) so thank god for multi-disciplinary studies. Or we wouldn't have many of the life-saving technologies we have now that are highly technical feats of science, engineering, and IT skills.

If you don't want to take his advice, that's totally up to you. I for one, appreciate it and then I can do my own research and come to my own conclusions.

That said, this topic has now strayed a long way from just asking about Steve's Vit C findings....


#16

Barry Wallis

Barry Wallis

I know several medical professionals who are very competent IT people (and a few engineers in that to boot) so thank god for multi-disciplinary studies. Or we wouldn't have many of the life-saving technologies we have now that are highly technical feats of science, engineering, and IT skills.
My favorite story of pursuing multiple, complementary disciplines is that the inventor of the Jarvik 7 artificial heart was Paul Winchell who also created Jerry Mahoney and Knucklehead Smith.
Artificial heart - Wikipedia


#17

M

Mervyn Haynes

So NHS doesn't cover you in other countries but would cover me if I became ill in the UK. Correct?
No. Free health care is only for EU citizens at the moment, but now the UK is leaving EU presume even that will not be the case!

If you don't want to take his advice, that's totally up to you
On the contrary, I too am taking 5000 IU (Vit D) a day. I an just playing devils' advocate!

As far as NEXT goes, I don't think it will be back until 11/10 (I would have said 11/3 but that's election day in the US).

Why such a long wait? I thought these series were suppose to be weekly! Election day eh, one big bun fight!


#18

G

Graham

So NHS doesn't cover you in other countries but would cover me if I became ill in the UK. Correct? In the U.S. even though I have government insurance (Medicare for those over 65) I also pay for a private insurance supplement which not only supplements Medicare but would cover me if I go abroad (not all supplements do but that's the benefit of being able to choose private insurance).
If you worked in the UK and paid National Insurance (taken by your employer from your salary automatically which funds the NHS) then you would be covered. As a tourist you would have to have Insurance or an agreement existing between the US and the UK to cover you.


#19

Barry Wallis

Barry Wallis

No. Free health care is only for EU citizens at the moment, but now the UK is leaving EU presume even that will not be the case!
So your having to pay for medical care in the US would be the same, currently, if I went to the UK (but maybe not after Brexit).

Why such a long wait? I thought these series were suppose to be weekly! Election day eh, one big bun fight!
I have no idea. They are rerunning episode 3 on 10/27 and the next week is election day. I would expect it to come back after that. Plus, at the end of November we start running into the holiday season which may disrupt it again. Oh well, at least The Mandalorian starts next week.


#20

M

Mervyn Haynes

So your having to pay for medical care in the US would be the same, currently, if I went to the UK (but maybe not after Brexit).
If I understand you right, yes I would have to pay for care in the US, but my privately purchased insurance (not NHS) would cover it, as I could claim the cost back. Anyone outside the EU (this includes the US) have never been covered by the NHS, you would have to rely on your medical insurance to cover treatment.

If you worked in the UK and paid National Insurance (taken by your employer from your salary automatically which funds the NHS) then you would be covered.

This I presume is true, but as an American tourist you would need a work visa. As a tourist to the UK would not be covered.

Are you thinking of a trip to the UK then?


#21

M

Mervyn Haynes

Sorry folks, we seem to have hijacked this thread. I am no means an expert on UK health insurance or the NHS, but am willing to answer anything I can to the best of my ability, but I think we would need to start a new thread. Maybe NHS?


#22

airchie

airchie

I moderate a language page for a popular radio show / podcast on language so I try to be careful of my usage.

As far as NEXT goes, I don't think it will be back until 11/10 (I would have said 11/3 but that's election day in the US).
One thing that's definitely worth watching out for is date format.
UK would generally be DD/MM and not MM/DD so easy to cause confusion.
In a multinational forum like this, I'd err on the side of clarity and use "3 Nov" etc (or "Nov 3").

I'm not sure what the rest of europe/world use?


#23

P

PHolder

UK would generally be DD/MM
That is the most idiotic decision I could imagine. SI uses largest unit first, and that makes the most sense in this case also. Personally, I prefer to do 20-Nov-09 to avoid any confusion, but this is still SI order. The downside of names for the months is they don't internationalize to non-English languages very well, whereas numbers are the same in any language. Probably best to use the full date if unsure, 2020-11-09 is unambiguous as I don't think there are any competing format with the year first... it has to be SI.


#24

M

Mervyn Haynes

Personally, I prefer to do 20-Nov-09
That is just crazy! 20th Nov 2009. Even more confusion.
If your talking largest first, the day would come before the month. ie. 1-31 vs 1-12


#25

P

PHolder

largest first
largest UNIT. Year is a bigger unit than a month which is bigger than a day which is bigger than an hour which is bigger than a minute which is bigger than a second... You know, precisely how SI indicates.


#26

M

Mervyn Haynes

Year is a bigger unit than a month which is bigger than a day
Even the US & UK do not put the year first


#27

rfrazier

rfrazier

There are many ways of writing dates around the world. FWIW, at least in Windows, if you name a file with a date embedded in the name in YYYYMMDD format, and if you're sorting by name, then the items with dates will be sub sorted in chronological order. For example:

lecture-notes-20200510.doc
lecture-notes-20200520.doc

In the US, the most common numeric format is

MM/DD/YY or
MM/DD/YYYY

I sometimes like to use periods instead of slashes but I don't know if anyone else does.

Since there are so many ways of writing dates, it really gets confusing if one or more of the numbers are <= 12 or even <= to the current year. Best to double check anything with date information that doesn't originate in your own region with your own customs. I haven't actually read the following article but the link looks relevant. I'm sure there are thousands of other such articles.


Ron


#28

M

Mervyn Haynes

There are many ways of writing dates around the world. FWIW, at least in Windows, if you name a file with a date embedded in the name in YYYYMMDD format, and if you're sorting by name, then the items with dates will be sub sorted in chronological order. For example:

lecture-notes-20200510.doc
lecture-notes-20200520.doc

In the US, the most common numeric format is

MM/DD/YY or
MM/DD/YYYY

I sometimes like to use periods instead of slashes but I don't know if anyone else does.

Since there are so many ways of writing dates, it really gets confusing if one or more of the numbers are <= 12 or even <= to the current year. Best to double check anything with date information that doesn't originate in your own region with your own customs. I haven't actually read the following article but the link looks relevant. I'm sure there are thousands of other such articles.


Ron
I guess it is what you grow up with or are taught. To me it make sense to say 11th September 2001, rather than September 11th 2001. The phrase 9/11 is known by everyone, but I wonder if it happened at Canary Wharf London, we would be calling it 11/9?


#29

P

PHolder

I'm a scientist, with a degree and everything. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601#Calendar_dates or bust.


#30

M

Mervyn Haynes

I'm a scientist, with a degree and everything
Well done with the degree.
I think dates (and language) are a regional thing, and each country does not has to follow any one format.
I did post a thread about the difference between US & UK language (I know I am suppose to provide a link, but not sure how to do so, could someone help please?)


#31

rfrazier

rfrazier

The following would work in Firefox. Find a link to your post by clicking what's new in the upper tool bar. Then, further down and to the left, click what's new again. Search for your post as you go back in history. Otherwise, click on your name at the top and click your content and scroll through that to find a link to your post. You may be able to find your post with the search system, but I've had poor results that way. Once you've found it, you can right click and click in the sub menu copy link location. Then, when you're writing a post, right click and click in the sub menu paste to paste the link.

May your bits be stable and your interfaces be fast. :cool: Ron


#32

Steve

Steve

@MLJ : I'm very much interested in sharing some of the other things I've learned during my decade of focused research (from before I turned 50 through my turning 60) into the support of human health and vitality endurance with dietary supplementation.

Two of my best friends from high school, Jim and Charlie, (members of our small gang who used to hang out in the “Math Resource Center”) became MD's. One is a general practitioner working in a clinical setting, and the other has been an E.R. Doc throughout his career. We're all still close friends and in touch after 50 years. If anything goes wrong with my body (fortunately still a rare occurrence at age 65) I'll reach out to ask for their opinion based upon their training and their many years of experience in the field. And, because they both know that I have researched and educated myself far more than their training and experience has provided, they are both continually asking for my advice about supplementation. (They have both resolved their problems with insomnia by using my healthy sleep formula with great success.)

Lay people typically assume that doctors, by virtue of their training, certification and experience, are thereby imbued with mystical medical knowledge and abilities that allows that person to transfer their responsibility for their own health to their physician. But there is nothing mystical about medical knowledge. It is just knowledge. And it can be gained by anyone who has the drive, determination and desire. I have had all three.

Unlike my knowledge of technology, electronics, computing and networking, which is extensive by virtue of the way I have spent my entire life, my supplementation-related medical knowledge is quite spotty. There is FAR more that I do not know than I do. But those few things that I do know, I know extensively and deeply. And on those few topics I am quite useful. Not because I have any formal training, but simply because I have done the research and subsequent experimentation.

Just as there is a wonderful and compelling story behind our need for significant levels of supplemental vitamin D, there are similar compelling explanations for our need for supplemental vitamin C, magnesium, CoQ10, and a few others. As soon as I can catch up with my prior commitments (I'm being careful not to add to that pile now) I fully intend to get those things documented, and their stories told. All of my close friends and family — not only doctors — have benefited and are benefiting from what I have learned and thereby recommend about many other dietary supplements. As I have with vitamin D, I would love to share what I have learned far more widely so that many more people might benefit.


#33

M

MLJ2

@MLJ : I'm very much interested in sharing some of the other things I've learned during my decade of focused research (from before I turned 50 through my turning 60) into the support of human health and vitality endurance with dietary supplementation.

Two of my best friends from high school, Jim and Charlie, (members of our small gang who used to hang out in the “Math Resource Center”) became MD's. One is a general practitioner working in a clinical setting, and the other has been an E.R. Doc throughout his career. We're all still close friends and in touch after 50 years. If anything goes wrong with my body (fortunately still a rare occurrence at age 65) I'll reach out to ask for their opinion based upon their training and their many years of experience in the field. And, because they both know that I have researched and educated myself far more than their training and experience has provided, they are both continually asking for my advice about supplementation. (They have both resolved their problems with insomnia by using my healthy sleep formula with great success.)

Lay people typically assume that doctors, by virtue of their training, certification and experience, are thereby imbued with mystical medical knowledge and abilities that allows that person to transfer their responsibility for their own health to their physician. But there is nothing mystical about medical knowledge. It is just knowledge. And it can be gained by anyone who has the drive, determination and desire. I have had all three.

Unlike my knowledge of technology, electronics, computing and networking, which is extensive by virtue of the way I have spent my entire life, my supplementation-related medical knowledge is quite spotty. There is FAR more that I do not know than I do. But those few things that I do know, I know extensively and deeply. And on those few topics I am quite useful. Not because I have any formal training, but simply because I have done the research and subsequent experimentation.

Just as there is a wonderful and compelling story behind our need for significant levels of supplemental vitamin D, there are similar compelling explanations for our need for supplemental vitamin C, magnesium, CoQ10, and a few others. As soon as I can catch up with my prior commitments (I'm being careful not to add to that pile now) I fully intend to get those things documented, and their stories told. All of my close friends and family — not only doctors — have benefited and are benefiting from what I have learned and thereby recommend about many other dietary supplements. As I have with vitamin D, I would love to share what I have learned far more widely so that many more people might benefit.
Thanks Steve. I look forward to it.

On an unrelated note, when I came back to the forums this time it made we setup a new account. Not sure what happened in the intervening time. I used the same login as before and tried it both from my browser extension and using the iPhone app with the same result.

Didn't see where else to put that information, so at least sharing it here.


#34

P

PHolder

On an unrelated note, when I came back to the forums this time it made we setup a new account. Not sure what happened in the intervening time. I used the same login as before and tried it both from my browser extension and using the iPhone app with the same result.
I presume you're referring to SQRL login. SQRL generates its credentials from the secret stored locally. Assuming nothing has happened to the local credentials, then it would be something on the site. As I use SQRL here, and I have not seen any issue, I am not convinced the issue is the site. So could anything have happened to your local SQRL credentials? Perhaps the better idea is to head over to the SQRL forums (linked in the toolbar above) and discuss it there.


#35

Barry Wallis

Barry Wallis

Also, when you say you came back the forums, are you talking about having previously registered at forums.grc.com?


#36

M

MLJ2

@Barry Wallis yes. I'm the MLJ that started this thread vs. the MLJ2 you now see as the author of these posts. ;) So the forums 'forgot' me somehow.


#37

M

manoappa

Long time listener and have heard many discussions about Vit C dosing, yet there is nothing on the website about how much or what to take? Would love to have that information. Have been taking 5000IU of Vit D for over a year. The latest blood test as part of my annual physical had me right in the middle of the acceptable range.
Try the book Curing the Incurable: Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases, and Toxins Kindle Edition by Thomas E. Levy (Author)


#38

Steve

Steve

The book I read and enjoyed was just titled "Ascorbate". Great book. :)

FWIW, I take 5 grams twice a day. Not scientific, other than that a mammal of approx. human size, whose DNA isn't broken to prevent the endogenous production of vitamin C in their liver, would be producing about twice that amount per day. (Humans, fruit bats and guinea pigs and some primates lack the ability to synthesize vitamin C... whereas ALL other mammals do so.)


#39

rfrazier

rfrazier

Hi all. I seem to remember some health threads being bounced from the forum a few years ago for being too controversial. But, since this was brought up again :rolleyes: ...

Yeah, what @Steve said. I've done a bit of studying on this. Still very much a layman. Vitamin C can actually do amazing things and it's essential to the immune system. Like @Steve also said, our bodies can't produce it. Who knows why. I've read about other mammals producing 28 g (28,000 mg) per day in their blood stream when under extreme stress. When the C O V virus that must not be named was kicking in, I ran across the work of Dr. Richard Cheng, a doctor who worked in both China and the USA. I believe he was a member of the Society for Orthomolecular Medicine (or similar). They were having good success treating near fatal cases with megadoses of C of 50 g / day or more. This cannot be self administered and must be done under a doctor's care. Extreme dosages must be administered intravenously. I've also come across evidence of clinics treating the C A N C disease which must not be named with megadoses of 90 g / day or more. This sounds horrendous when you read the label on your high potency vitamin C jar and it says 1 g / day dosage. What happens is that the body absorbs what it needs in the blood stream to do the repairs it has to do. That need will change dynamically during healing. If you start overdosing you start getting diarrhea. So, the preferred method is to increase dosage up to the diarrhea level then back off a bit. For the mammals that make vitamin C on their own, this happens automatically. Again, though, megadosing isn't a DIY project. You need a clinic and doctor that knows how and why to do it. Even the Linus Pauling Institute, a key vitamin C research group, doesn't promote this.

For more average situations and more average people, Dr. Cheng recommends 5 -10 g (5,000 - 10,000 mg) / day for routine maintenance. I take two 1,000 mg pills at lunch, supper, and bed time, which adds up to 6 g / day. For really bad flu's or possibly C O V, I've been up to 16 g / day for short periods of time. HOWEVER, since vitamin is Ascorbic Acid, and is acidic, it can really screw up your stomach and gut at high levels. I tell people to use a BUFFERED C product. I use one from Kal in tablet form of 1 g (1,000 mg ea.). Ester C is a good but not cheap brand. I've had trouble with Ester C tablets from NatureSmart. There's nothing wrong with the product but the thin coating wears off within a few seconds and they become difficult to swallow. My wife uses Ester C in capsule form. You can also get vitamin C in powdered form. Finally, don't just jump up to a 5 g - 10 g maintenance dose. Ease into it to see how your body reacts. Actually @Steve your approach IS scientific.

As a side note, I normally take 5,000 IU of D3 per day and up it to 10,000 IU for short periods of time if I'm sick. You can overdose on D3 though and everybody's needs are different. Don't take large dosages for long.
Hope this helps.

May your bits be stable and your interfaces be fast. :cool: Ron


#40

rfrazier

rfrazier

Try the book Curing the Incurable: Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases, and Toxins Kindle Edition by Thomas E. Levy
@manoappa WOW! I just got my hands on the audiobook version of this. I like to listen when I drive and such at slightly accelerated speed. This book is blowing my socks off. I'm about 3 chapters in. If you readers have any interest in this topic, get this book right now. Unless he goes off the rails in the latter part, I'm VERY impressed. Thanks for the tip.

May your bits be stable and your interfaces be fast. :cool: Ron